Modes help.

Tailers

Well-Known Member
#1
I've been reading and watching modes information and education however there is a certain thing I dont get yet.
I've watched chappers vid on modes where he plays 1 certain pattern over various places on the neck blabla.

Now if its a mode in the key of E, I get that I can let the lower E ring through when playing inside the scale. But what if its a C for example? how do I let it ring through? or what is the deal now, does it mean I must start my riff/lick on the C note of a major scale pattern and play it as a link between my licks or what? or if I start on a note thats on the 4th string, can I go to every other string after that if I want or do I have to play it downwards from my root note? (so if I start on D I can only play D-G-B-e?) I've been trying to find good info sites but none are actually understandable or very clear in my opinion
 

Adji

Not Enough Prog
#2
I don't think I understand the question? Can you try rephrasing it?
What exactly with the modes do you not get?
 

Tailers

Well-Known Member
#4
Ok 1 question is.

In a mode say my root will be on the D string.

Does that mean I can only play this: (example)

e--------------------8-10-----------
B-------------4-5-7-----------------
G--------5-7-----------------------
D---4(root)-6-----------------------------
A--------------------------------
E--------------------------------
So the first question rephrased it is it alowed to go ''infront'' of the root note so in this case the A or E string?

The second question is:
I watched a chappers vid on modal theory, and he said if you let the root note ring through then you're talking about modes. Thats what makes the mode.

So I can apply this when the root note is E or A or D or any of the open string notes for that matter because you can pick them, let them ring then go on to play the other notes of the mode on the other strings. (so pick open E, play lick on A and D string for example)

So my problem is, how do I let the root note ring if its a C for example? Theres no open C string so I am confused. How would I let this note ring through while playing the mode?

I tried to rephrase it to as basic as I can but you have to understand it's hard to explain what you dont know haha
 

Voodoorider

Can spot a twat a mile away.
#5
Ok.. question 1.. (i can tell you made that example up :p)

You want to know if you can play that back from the root note. Well, yup, of course! As long as you play the right notes for the scale/mode you want to play in a specific key!

If you did want to play that exact example starting on the E string you could go..

E --------------------------------------------------
B --------------------------------------------------
G ------------------------------5--7-----------
D --------------------1--2--4--------------
A -------------3--5-------------------
E ---2(r)--4----------------------

The 2(root) in my example is the octave of the 4(root) in your example on the D string. So the tab i've just done is exactly the same as yours.. 1 octave lower. Although there are a lot of ways to play that, as long as the notes are the same, you can pretty much do it where you like.

Does that make sense? It's just clicked in my head that maybe you're thinking that the E A D G B E strings are what determine the key you can play a scale or mode in?? In which case, nopey no! :D The first note on your example, the 4(root) is an F# so you'd be playing in F# if that was your root note, you with me? Now.. my example starting on the E string.. 2(root) is ALSO an F#. If you play the 2 notes one after the other you'll hear they're the same note. So.. wherever your root note is on the fretboard on whichever string or whichever key is what determines what you are playing, from there, it's the order in which you play the intervals (gaps between the notes) that determines WHICH mode or scale you are playing :D hows that for not very helpful? :confused:


And in the Chappers vid about modes (not sure of the exact one but i think i know it) it's not a drone note which makes a mode or scale, it's the structure of the notes used AND in which context you use them which makes them their respective scale or mode, it's a bit of a head fuck and needs a bit of learning to understand a bit, i'm not about to undertake that responsibility being crap at it myself lol

The drone note Chappers used was purely as a base so you could hear the different modes over the top of it (i'm maybe even thinking of a Satriani example i saw) he picked an open E, which means he was playing whichever scales/modes that he did in the key of E, to match the droning note. Without altering your tuning it's going to be pretty hard to do that with a C :/

I hope i answered what you wanted to know?? If not, we'll try again :D also my most sincere apologies if you already know any of that and I'm just being patronizing! :cool:

EDITED for more simplicity..

And PS.. someone who's actually clever come and rescue the poor lad from me :D
 
#6
I think you got it right there dude, he's got confused about how to play the root of the mode whilst playing the rest over it.

Simples!

If your mode is in E, you can play an open E...if it's in C you can play a C chord with delay to create a loop or, create a simple loop with a multitrack recorder or perhaps with a DAW on your PC. Or even find a backing track on the internet....anything which gives you a chord progression for the mode - that's what defines it.

Play a C major scale/ionian mode over a C major chord and bingo - C Ionian
Play a C major scale over a Dmin chord (ii chord of C) and there you go - D Dorian.

It's ALL about the chords providing a harmonic basis - the intervallic structure of the mode in relation to the chords does the rest.
 

Tailers

Well-Known Member
#7
ShadyDave said:
I think you got it right there dude, he's got confused about how to play the root of the mode whilst playing the rest over it.

Simples!

If your mode is in E, you can play an open E...if it's in C you can play a C chord with delay to create a loop or, create a simple loop with a multitrack recorder or perhaps with a DAW on your PC. Or even find a backing track on the internet....anything which gives you a chord progression for the mode - that's what defines it.

Play a C major scale/ionian mode over a C major chord and bingo - C Ionian
Play a C major scale over a Dmin chord (ii chord of C) and there you go - D Dorian.

It's ALL about the chords providing a harmonic basis - the intervallic structure of the mode in relation to the chords does the rest.

First, Voodoo I would put your post in here aswell, but it would be a huge post =P So don't think I don't sincerely appreciate your help

To shady, I think I actually get it now, because I never play with a band or loop or backing track (except some songs) I was stuck in just me playing guitar, If it's over a chord it makes alot more sense but let me try and write how I see it now so you guys can still see if theres a fault in it.

There's an E major chord on the background, And every major scale should have an E in it somewhere right? so depending on which major scale pattern I pick on the neck determines my mode.

so if the major scale would be C D E F G A B C or anything in between aslong as it has an E somewhere, in this case the third note I would be playing in the third mode mode? (dont know all the names yet lol) think its Dorian? and if I play further down the neck where the major scale would be G A B C D E F G it would be the 6th mode?, and because all these different tones are availible over a single chord is what gives every mode it's own feel and sound?
 
#8
I think if I read that right you've got the idea :)

<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://monkeylordforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1731">viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1731</a><!-- l -->

Take a look at that topic - there's all the info you really need on the subject.
 

robsilver

Weekend rock lord
#9
http://rob-silver.blogspot.com/2009/12/diatonic-scales-three-note-per-string.html

I don't know if this will help or make things more confusing, but these diagrams show the 7 postions that go together to cover a whole 12 frets of the neck in any mode/key.

I've also included the intervals created by each position if you use the harmony created by starting the scale on that note...

ie. the second postion is Dorian and so on.

in isoloation it might just make it worse for you but have a look.

I think the trouble is that Modes aren't a difficult concept, it's just a difficult concept to explain, especially in bullet points online.

and shady, check out my new diagrams with actual dots :)
 

robsilver

Weekend rock lord
#10
http://theshredshed.blogspot.com/2009/12/guitar-grimoire-every-scales-you-will.html

Also, try downloading a copy of "THE GUITAR GRIMOIRE" the diagrams map out every scale you can think of, everywhere on the neck in every key, that might help you understand.

For a long time I couldn't get my head around the idea that if you learned a particular diatonic scale box, it could sound like any one of the modes depending on what chord or note you played it over...
 

Tailers

Well-Known Member
#11
robsilver said:
http://rob-silver.blogspot.com/2009/12/diatonic-scales-three-note-per-string.html

I don't know if this will help or make things more confusing, but these diagrams show the 7 postions that go together to cover a whole 12 frets of the neck in any mode/key.

I've also included the intervals created by each position if you use the harmony created by starting the scale on that note...

ie. the second postion is Dorian and so on.

in isoloation it might just make it worse for you but have a look.

I think the trouble is that Modes aren't a difficult concept, it's just a difficult concept to explain, especially in bullet points online.

and shady, check out my new diagrams with actual dots :)
So far it has made it more confusing lol =P I'm trying to get the theory down now so I try not to look at diagrams yet but just understanding why and how, then I can look up which notes exactly ^^
 

robsilver

Weekend rock lord
#12
Ooops...

*hangs head in shame*

That page is more of a revision sheet for somebody who already understands rather than a learning tool.

I'm writing up a series of modes lessons over christmas while I have some free time, so if you're still confused in 10 days I might be able to help :)
 
#13
New Diagrams look good :)

Modes are a pain in the backside - but I find that as soon as they click it's all plain sailing from there. Hopefully ^^
 

Tailers

Well-Known Member
#14
robsilver said:
Ooops...

*hangs head in shame*

That page is more of a revision sheet for somebody who already understands rather than a learning tool.

I'm writing up a series of modes lessons over christmas while I have some free time, so if you're still confused in 10 days I might be able to help :)
In a weird kind of way I hope so ^^
 

Anonymoose

Midget Metal Monkey
#16
Before we begin on modes, do you understand how a Major scale is constructed? Sorry if this sounds patronising, but you NEED to know. I may have misread a couple of your questions but it seems to me that you're all over the shop :)
 

Ernesto

Does not have the same opinion!
#17
Wow, I can't really get my brain to translate the posts in this thread at this late hour. The only thing I'd want to say is that a book of scales and modes is an absolute necessity for a guitarist that want to start to learn how to play music, and that modes and pentatonic scales are learned easily by playing along with music, if it's wrong, it sounds horrible, and once you get the fret position patterns burned into your memory, you don't even have to think about it anymore. After one set of fretwire on your guitar practicing, it will be burned into your memory so deep that you'll forget the name of your wife before forgetting the fret positions on the different strings in your scales and how to blend it in with the best positions to play corresponding chords :D
 
#18
I have a wife? :eek:

Nah, Ernesto is right - a lot of it is down to simple repetition and practice. Anon is right which is why I gave you the link to all the relevant major scale theory earlier on.

Just get your head down and study it :)
 

Tailers

Well-Known Member
#19
Anonymoose said:
Before we begin on modes, do you understand how a Major scale is constructed? Sorry if this sounds patronising, but you NEED to know. I may have misread a couple of your questions but it seems to me that you're all over the shop :)
I get it now :) (major scale) just looked it up for my final check But when I tried to learn modes I played the major scale patterns to make sure I was on the right notes. =)
 
#20
i had a total realisation tonight about modes.

i was learning the dorian mode in the key of A then i noticed that the notes in the scale are similar to what the bohemian rhapsody solo is played in.
so i did some investigationing and i found that the F dorian scale has the exact same notes as the Eb major scale :eek:
so now instead of trying to learn the dorian mode i will just learn the A major scale and move it down 2 frets if i want to play in A dorian :)

i understand that the 7 modes of the pentatonic are just added notes on the minor pentatonic. like how the minor pent' is: 1,b3,4,5,b7
and if you want to get to the dorian you just add in a 2 and a 6 to make:
1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7
which is almost the exact same as the major scale except the root note is different which changes the b3 and b7 to whole notes like this:
1,2,3,4,5,6,7
and that another mode, the Ionian, is an exact copy of the major scale.
here is a small Jpeg i made to see if they actually were the same notes.

this is how i love to learn these things, because it makes me remember it easier if it brings a smile to my face :D
 

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