Avengers endgame (SPOILERS!!)

mirage2101

Well-Known Member
#1
If you haven't watched the movie, and plan on seeing it. Step away!

Gone?

Really?

Last warning!!

So then..
I had a great time with the movie but still a few nitpicks. On the positive side it's amazing that we got this on screen at all. Infinity war is one of those comics everybody said if they ever do a movie, that should be it. But they'll never do it because it's just too large. And sure it was scaled down a bit but it was amazing..

Some thoughts..
I think Thanos would've been fine with his I worship Mistress death thing. It seems he got that his plan to kill half the life in the universe was a bad plan. And he's a huge badass in the final fight. So he's been redeemed a bit from the first movie.

The time travel shenenigans were good fun. It was a great tour through what we've seen before. Nice way to handle it.

I think they missed a chance to introduce infinity. A great post credits scene would've been him saying the stones won't work together again. (foreshadowing something of what's to come and taking the stones away less permanent)

Thor... I didn't like how they handled this. Yes he was in pain. We've spend an entire movie with Tony dealing with PTSD. And then we get a fat thor who needs a hug and it's all good? Not cool.

Iron man & Cap. Ok I get the actors want to do something different. I can understand that. I would've gone the james bond route. That actually fits the comics more. Each writer and artist slightly change the look and character of them. So why not do the same in movies? Depending on the actor you can go almost comedy, to thriller to horror to whatever. By taking them off the board you'll need to do a soft reboot at some point. (And WHY didn't anybody think to use that DAMN gauntlet to heal tony!!)
Or use the healing and cap's time travel as an excuse to introduce a new actor "hey cap, did you change your hair?"

But in the end.. Man.. Sure you know they'll win. There are new movies announced. But man this was a cool movie..

To your left...
 

beans & rice

Well-Known Member
#2
If I don't think about Cap going back and then showing up on the bench, and all the plot holes it opens, then I'm fine with the purpose of that scene. :D

RDJ is not an old man, but he's too old to want to keep doing this I reckon. And "Tony Stark" going to the grave knowing that the shield he failed to build around the Earth, he succeeded in building around the ENTIRE universe, feeds his ego just enough that he can rest, as Pepper said. He did all he wanted to do in his life, and more. The end of his arc was perfect. If he lived, it would cheapen the entire decade of buildup and the final battle. We needed real sacrifice to make it all mean something. Which is why I think they went with a 5-year timeline from the snap. In the comic, everything went back to normal almost immediately and no one pretty much remembered, as usually happens.

Also, the gauntlet nearly killed Thanos and Hulk. Stark was merely human, but strong enough to wear it for a short time. Anyone else trying to save him would have died. He was likely dying the second he took the stones from Thanos and integrated them into his own armor.

Cap, is much more of a symbol, and Rogers symbolized best what came before the snap. A guy like Wilson can carry that spirit into a future that restarts from the 5-year absence, as Cap maintained the enduring spirit that pushed the world past a global war. I don't know if that makes sense how I put it. :p

The brief scene with Loki grabbing the cube was hilarious. The look on his face. :D

Dreadlocked Burning Man Thor wielding both hammers was goosebump-inducing epic. "No, you take the small one." :bounce:
I don't think Thor's problems were brushed away. Rocket is a do/don't kind of character. He doesn't mire himself in reflection. He needed Thor to sober up and be functional for 5 minutes, and then he could go on with whatever he was dealing with. They were doing something much bigger than the struggles of one person mattered. They were on the job to save countless trillions from nothingess. He wasn't looking to fix him, and that was clear he didn't both in Thor's conversation with his mother, and the end when Thor handed Asgard to Valkyrie. He was very much still struggling. And Asgardians of the Galaxy might well be his Iron Man 3. He was as tortured by what not killing Thanos meant and everything that came just before and after, as Tony was by his ordeal from the first movie. Taking his head off was handled perfectly, because it was not depicted as a triumphant moment at all for Thor or anyone. They all looked embarrassed and ashamed by how meaningless the action was against what Thanos had just done.

They briefly covered Celestials with Knowhere, so Infinity and other cosmic entities like Death would've been easy enough to add and non-comic viewers would be able to fit them easily enough into the scale of the stories. But that may come with the next Guardians movie. We never did find out about Adam Warlock. We just saw his cocoon about to open. So he may show up to start the Infinity Watch, or they may do the Magus story. But there might well be Celestials included there.
The idea of the Multiverse has been teased in a couple of the previous MCU movies, and it is an outright part of the plot of the upcoming Spider-Man, so the stones are not necessarily gone. Plus, they have time travel established in the main universe.

Here's something that kinda bugged me. The Collector's slave grabbed the stone in GOTG1 and it destroyed the room and her. It nearly consumed Ronan while he held it briefly before slamming it into his hammer. And it took the combined wills of all the Guardians - Quill even being half-god - to hold it. But in Endgame we have not only Hulk and Tilda Swinton handle one without a blink, but friggin' Hawkeye wakes up with the Soul Stone in his dainty little human paw.
 

mirage2101

Well-Known Member
#3
Cap and Tony got a fitting end. That's true. But while in comics nobody dies permanently a movie audience might expect differently. I just want to see more of them :)
They could use the cap gets a new super-serum dose to make him younger again. Or cosmic cube, timetravel etc ;-)

Thor could've used the gauntlet. Probably get away with it better then the hulk.

Those are actually good points on thor. I hadn't considered that.

I'm so looking forward to warlock. I would love the church of universel truth. As long as we stay away from counter earth.

Concerning the stones I think it's a bit "because script". In the comics for a long time everyone could hold the stones, but not use them individually. Or not use them to their full potential. For Drax it made him more powerful, pip extended his range. I thought it made sense in gotg1 that using the stone by itself would channel too much power. Just look at the space stone, humans thought it was an energy source. That's not it's function but that's how powerful those things are. So as soon as you try to use them..
Now Ronan had the purple one, that's power if i'm not mistaken. It makes sense for that one to be so overflowing it might be an issue.
Sorcerer supreme gets a pass. She knows stuff so handling the time stone should be ok. It would've been a fun nod to see hulk age and regress but you can only do so much I guess.
The soul stone would've obeyed to hawkeye since he "earned" it.
 

bad alice

Easily distracted and...OHLOOKAGUITAR!!!
#4
I loved the film and felt they did the almost impossible job of turning things around from the end of Infinity War, giving us a satisfying ending AND tying up some character arcs in a coherent, respectful and downright emotional way too. Tony dying defo felt like a “knew it was coming but goddamnit, I STILL couldn’t stop it” moment.
Tbh I felt Peter trying to reassure Tony was the most emotional bit. When Gwyneth stepped in it ruined it...but that’s prob due to Gwyneth being in my list of people I would rather stab myself in the leg with a fork than find myself sitting beside at a dinner party so there’s that to consider.
Lebowski Thor?
Overall, I loved him because I think making him fat was a good visual way to continually remind the viewer of the guilt/regret/pain he was carrying and, while there were definitely some issues with how the script handled that, Thor’s physical decline over those 5 years is especially impacting set within a “superhero” film where bulging muscles are the norm. Not to forget that most of us can legit claim to have a superhero body now...;)
Also, I heard that New Asgard is set in St. Abbs in Scotland and a friend who’s seen the film a few times can confirm there is a bottle of Irn Bru sat in one of the table in Thor’s house #win :)
A huge grin from me when they *went there* and had Cap say the words “Hail Hydra”! Woohoo! And I really liked that to see him pretend to be loyal to Hydra and kind of say those words with a wink was all sorts of awesome and in its own way *fixed* that nightmare story arc in the comics. *salutes*
Black Widow sacrificing herself for the Soul Stone felt 100% right to me as it is the perfect resolution of her character arc. She’s come from being a morally mute assassin for hire all the way to being a key Avenger and (it seems) running SHIELD, so dying to save others (and her “family” as she mentions during a speech in Endgame) feels bang on. Respect.
I love how Marvel uses its films to inform by hindsight. So that NOW I’m thinking “hmmm...I betcha Cap could have picked up Mjolnir in Age Of Ultron but, being Cap, he instinctively knew how that would mess with Thor’s insecurities so let go when he felt the hammer shift”.
Very cool.
Yes, there were plenty of “but couldn’t they just...?” and “that’s a bit convenient” moments but given the scale of what Marvel had to deliver and how much fan service they managed to shoehorn in as well then I’m struggling to think how they could’ve done a better job.
Top marks.
:)

EDIT: in addition I now have a pretty concrete visual of how I’ll land if Mitch ever feels the need to sacrifice me for the Soul Stone.
I shall remember to dress accordingly.
:D
 
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Strigidae

I like owls.
#6
Any time you have time travel in a movie, there will be inconsistencies and paradoxes. It's inescapable. The best thing is to just accept that and go along for the ride.

Given that, I really loved the movie.
At the same time there's multiple things you can do to not bring attention to the inconsistencies. One of them being to not directly bring attention to the inconsistencies in your movie.

For instance - Why not have Black Widow killed in battle instead of her sacrificing herself for the soul stone? She's literally just a fit human, Thanos would have destroyed her in Infinity War. Instead we have this ridiculous thing where they claim it was impossible to get her back with the Hulk snap, while at the same time doing the final battle with a Gamora brought to the future from a different timeline - They died in the same way!

Also, they decide to establish that changing the past doesn't change the future (without explanation mind you) - Killing baby Thanos wouldn't work. So while Cap went back in time to live out his life with Peggy Carter, a second Cap fought with the Avengers. A second Gamora lives out her life by time-travelling past her death in the original timeline. Ok - Now literally no death in the entire MCU matters. Bring back Tony Stark from before Infinity War. Bring back Vision from before Infinity War. Bring back Loki from before Inifity War. Bring back Quicksilver from Age of Ultron - Nothing is off-limits.

I don't think these are minor problems to just ignore because ignoring them would make the film better - It's poor writing. That might be a fault of the comics, I don't know, but it's not like they haven't changed things from the comic in the past. Like how Civil War became this pathetic 10 man battle in an empty airfield ("We're still friends, right?" in the middle of battle was a low point for the entire MCU). The simple fix would be to actually have consequences; Dead is dead; Anyone who died of causes other than the actual snap can't come back. It means Black Widow's death would be final. Vision's death would be final. Iron Man's death would be final. Loki's death would be final - and so on (not that there were any other notable deaths in the entire MCU over the last 11 years, Quicksilver doesn't count). But that won't happen, got to keep milking that cash cow without rocking the boat too much.
 

mirage2101

Well-Known Member
#7
The soul stone won’t allow gamora to be returned to life with a snap. Or widow. The way she was resurrected was through other means.
Time travel through the quantum realm was a hairy choice.
Accept that in this universe dead isn’t dead forever. But it has been done in other comics but these characters are just too big.

In ultimate marvel dead was permanent. Good series. Would’ve made a great trilogy. But not a 10 year series that’ll potentially stretch out for much longer.

I’m hoping for wild storm comics actually :)
After 20 years of marvel and dc goodie two shoes the authority would be a welcome sight :)
 

SemiCullen

Still haven't got the hang of Thursdays
#8
At the same time there's multiple things you can do to not bring attention to the inconsistencies. One of them being to not directly bring attention to the inconsistencies in your movie.

For instance - Why not have Black Widow killed in battle instead of her sacrificing herself for the soul stone? She's literally just a fit human, Thanos would have destroyed her in Infinity War. Instead we have this ridiculous thing where they claim it was impossible to get her back with the Hulk snap, while at the same time doing the final battle with a Gamora brought to the future from a different timeline - They died in the same way!

Also, they decide to establish that changing the past doesn't change the future (without explanation mind you) - Killing baby Thanos wouldn't work. So while Cap went back in time to live out his life with Peggy Carter, a second Cap fought with the Avengers. A second Gamora lives out her life by time-travelling past her death in the original timeline. Ok - Now literally no death in the entire MCU matters. Bring back Tony Stark from before Infinity War. Bring back Vision from before Infinity War. Bring back Loki from before Inifity War. Bring back Quicksilver from Age of Ultron - Nothing is off-limits.

I don't think these are minor problems to just ignore because ignoring them would make the film better - It's poor writing. That might be a fault of the comics, I don't know, but it's not like they haven't changed things from the comic in the past. Like how Civil War became this pathetic 10 man battle in an empty airfield ("We're still friends, right?" in the middle of battle was a low point for the entire MCU). The simple fix would be to actually have consequences; Dead is dead; Anyone who died of causes other than the actual snap can't come back. It means Black Widow's death would be final. Vision's death would be final. Iron Man's death would be final. Loki's death would be final - and so on (not that there were any other notable deaths in the entire MCU over the last 11 years, Quicksilver doesn't count). But that won't happen, got to keep milking that cash cow without rocking the boat too much.
It's easy to get hung up on things that bug you. I get that. The fact that water killed the aliens in Signs ruined that movie for me. None of the things you mention in Avengers bothered me. I get the inconsistencies. I get that there are/were smarter ways to handle them. I don't care. I was satisfied with the emotional touchpoints, and bringing things to a satisfying conclusion.
 

beans & rice

Well-Known Member
#9
Gamora isn't alive, though. She was dusted with the rest of Thanos' invasion party. I mean, they can always bring her back for the money if they want, but at this point Kansas has a song dedicated to her. :D

@mirage2101 Good point about the power stone, and the soul stone. I recall that the priest freaked out when Red Skull reached for the tesseract in CATFA, that it would destroy him. But that was a weird thing anyway, since it was a Cosmic Cube, but really an Infinity Gem. And they're different things in the comics. So, who knows. :bounce: I'll go with your "because script" explanation.
I guess Thor probably could've worn it. But he was still pretty messed up inside, so who knows if he'd have remained strong enough.

@bad alice I cringed when Gwynny P pushed her way in, too. I know Pepper has a right, but it broke the moment.

More stuff that I dug:
Like @bad alice mentioned, the callback to the elevator scene where Cap beat the shit out of all the Shield agents, except this time whipped out his Hydra. :D
Hulk holding up a "mountain" like he did in Secret Wars.
I was constantly finding myself amazed by the nuance and realness of Prof. Hulk's Ruffalo face and features every time he was on screen.
Finally hearing that phrase "Avengers Assemble" at the motherfucking right time. :D
The A Force moment when all of the women assembled to fight alongside Captain Marvel. There is a small chance they might even make an A Force movie.
 

Magnus Pym

Grudges rot the soul
#10
I used to read a lot of old school science fiction and the overarching rule is that even if the science in the book is strict and complete. The film will fuck it up for 'reasons'. I watched the film for entertainment value and even not knowing the nods and winks to comic cannon going back decades I was fully entertained.
 

Chili Hobbes

So much time, and so little to do.
#11
Also, they decide to establish that changing the past doesn't change the future (without explanation mind you) - Killing baby Thanos wouldn't work. So while Cap went back in time to live out his life with Peggy Carter, a second Cap fought with the Avengers. A second Gamora lives out her life by time-travelling past her death in the original timeline. Ok - Now literally no death in the entire MCU matters. Bring back Tony Stark from before Infinity War. Bring back Vision from before Infinity War. Bring back Loki from before Inifity War. Bring back Quicksilver from Age of Ultron - Nothing is off-limits.
They tried to explain it though. When you go back in time any changes you make create a new "strand" so you have multiple timelines running side by side. It seems more like parallel dimensions kind of shit to me, but what do I know. That means the Gamora running about is from another timeline, not really "the past". Sure you can bring Natasha over but then her timeline has no Black Widow. I think. Doesn't explain why Cap could go back, re-live his life with Peggy (in an alternate timeline with it's own Cap I guess?) then somehow come back to ours as an old man. I assume he had more Pym Particles?

Like I say they tried to explain it, but I hated their time travel interpretation and I just decided fuck it I'll go along for the ride.
 

johnniegoat

Stop, don’t, come back.
#12
film was nonsense. as it should be. i enjoyed it - my kids adored it*

what was bigger nonsense are the ranks of doofs on the interwebs claiming that killing off Black WIdow was not redemptive but demonstrative that the marvel doesn't know how to handle women characters. Jezu wept an all

and my favorite character got to be relatively important. Antman, at least the Scott Lang version, to me is the best of what a superhero can be. it all well and good being a genius-with-gamma-rays, a billionaire/ genius, supersoldier, the son of a sentient planet or demigod. but i like my superhumans a little less super and a little more human

* side note - as well as enjoying this for what it is, watching "bad" movies with my kids have made me realise they are actually good if not watched by a middle aged twat with a superiority complex and a "in my day space wizards with laser swords *were* space wizards with laser swords" reflex
 

bad alice

Easily distracted and...OHLOOKAGUITAR!!!
#13
film was nonsense. as it should be. i enjoyed it - my kids adored it*

what was bigger nonsense are the ranks of doofs on the interwebs claiming that killing off Black WIdow was not redemptive but demonstrative that the marvel doesn't know how to handle women characters. Jezu wept an all

and my favorite character got to be relatively important. Antman, at least the Scott Lang version, to me is the best of what a superhero can be. it all well and good being a genius-with-gamma-rays, a billionaire/ genius, supersoldier, the son of a sentient planet or demigod. but i like my superhumans a little less super and a little more human

* side note - as well as enjoying this for what it is, watching "bad" movies with my kids have made me realise they are actually good if not watched by a middle aged twat with a superiority complex and a "in my day space wizards with laser swords *were* space wizards with laser swords" reflex
So much this^
:hug:
:)
 

Wade Garrett

I am the projectionist.
#15
I just watched it. I've never read any of the comics, missed out on a few of the films along the way and forgotten what the hell happened in the ones I saw so I have no doubt I missed out on a ton of references and frankly the reason why a lot of things were happening. Ignoring that, I really enjoyed it, it didn't feel like three hours at all which is a real testament to the film.

That's my 2 cents in a very Hulk sort of way - "Film good"!
 

Magnus Pym

Grudges rot the soul
#16
OK. So time travel - in a backwards direction. Either it is possible or not possible. Either futures can be changed or they can't. IF it is a possible and futures can be changed then future people have done it, changed things and our present and the recent past we remember is the best they could come up with. Well it's not credible is it? QED.:)
 

bad alice

Easily distracted and...OHLOOKAGUITAR!!!
#17
OK. So time travel - in a backwards direction. Either it is possible or not possible. Either futures can be changed or they can't. IF it is a possible and futures can be changed then future people have done it, changed things and our present and the recent past we remember is the best they could come up with. Well it's not credible is it? QED.:)
I’m still pissed off that hover boards aren’t here yet.
Goddamn fiction messing with my expectations of reality...
*mutters darkly into coffee mug*
;)
:)
 

Chu

Well-Known Member
#20
Teleportation is the one I want. I'm not overly enamoured with traveling but like seeing new things. The idea of just instantly being where I want to go appeals to me.
Damn right. Not only can you visit people on a whim, you'll never need to use the M25 again! Or take a coat. Raining? Who cares, I'm home already! And you could be the most highly paid courier. Package to Dubai? All done sir, that'll be £5000. Not paying? Here's your package back.....

film was nonsense. as it should be. i enjoyed it - my kids adored it*

* side note - as well as enjoying this for what it is, watching "bad" movies with my kids have made me realise they are actually good if not watched by a middle aged twat with a superiority complex and a "in my day space wizards with laser swords *were* space wizards with laser swords" reflex
I. FUCKING. LOVE. YOU.

On a side note, i remember at school that I always bought the 'wrong' toy. You know, my Han Solo wasn't period correct for the Luke Skywalker. That I my action man's SAS equipment wasn't the accurate/the latest version. That my guitar amp isn't 'all-valve'.....

There's always someone trying to assert their own superiority, their own anal requirements to get everything perfect that pisses all over the fun. I should have said it to young Stephen as a child but will make up for it now. Fuck off. You're a dick. People actively avoid you. My 'incorrect' Han Solo scaled Niagra Falls, teamed up with Superman and saved the fucking day. And now I'm rocking out with my overpriced guitar, abhorrent pickups and shameful amp like a fucking champion. It's called playing for a reason, because it's supposed to be fun!
 
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